Curse

The Josip · Jun 17, 2010, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Need elite for bomber hero.

I see many advising AotL but is +1 Death magic really so good? Corpse exploitation I don't find useful in practice, except very rarely. So how much stronger does +1 death magic make him?

How good is AotL compared to Discord outside of Discordway? Let's say that condition+hex/enchantment requirement will be met most of the time.

Signet of Removal, Empathic Removal.

Or some other elite.

Simply looking at the numbers I don't see why AotL is that good. What am I missing.

What Now · Jun 17, 2010, 12:24 PM // 12:24

It was a lot more impressive when it was +2 death to be honest, free minions and exploiting all corpses at once is nice though. It adds damage to your swarm and buffs other minions also on the bright side.

Discord has several conditions to be met which at times in some areas and against some mobs/bosses it's work to meet them running Discordway itself.

If your up against larger mobs that you intend on dropping quicker Icy Veins is usually overlooked.

Lodar Aric · Jun 17, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

I use it on my MM Bomber because with Masochism it creates some great tanks with the added bonus of death nova if/when they are killed. Also it can create an army quickly, so if they are wiped by an aoe spike they can be built up again quickly.

You don't need to run a MM elite, you could run empathic removal or signet or removal/something else if you like. Most of the time though i don't feel the need to bring something like that.

Bristlebane · Jun 17, 2010, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Explosive Growth, tons of corpses and pull in a bunch of mobs around a spirit bait... BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Dre · Jun 17, 2010, 12:50 PM // 12:50

hero: Jagged bones (obvious reasons)
Human MM: Order of Undead (this can add a lot of damage, just make sure you have some vampiric horrors. Also, take some bone fiends, they have the fastest attack speed of all minions).
Rit MM: AotL + Explosive Growth + Boon of Creation (recommended for Energy gain) + Spirit's Gift (optional, but give a nice AoE heal and condition removal)

IronSheik · Jun 17, 2010, 12:55 PM // 12:55

I never had a need for Jagged bones since I usually play Melee and thrash everything anyway, so I ran empathetic.

But if caster, Aotl or Jagged bones will be the better choice

ac1inferno · Jun 17, 2010, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dre

hero: Jagged bones (obvious reasons)
Human MM: Order of Undead (this can add a lot of damage, just make sure you have some vampiric horrors. Also, take some bone fiends, they have the fastest attack speed of all minions).
Rit MM: AotL + Explosive Growth + Boon of Creation (recommended for Energy gain) + Spirit's Gift (optional, but give a nice AoE heal and condition removal)

Pretty much this for general builds. [[Discord (PvE)] if you're using Discordway. I don't see why you would use any other Elites for your MMs besides those.

FoxBat · Jun 17, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Minion bomber spends 90% of their time casting death nova. You can add discord and it's not completely useless, but they won't be casting it often. Main advantage of AotL is they'll often cast death nova instead of raising critters, so at the end of battle you can get an army up with one skill press and move on instead of waiting around... albeit this takes some micro to take advantage of.

Eragon Zarroc · Jun 17, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

1. makes a minion with no corpse

2. exploits all corpses at once

3. boosts death attribute by +1

is there something bad about those?

Mintha Syl · Jun 17, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

What many said...an entire minion army quickly and with only one skills's energy, a free minion with no corpse, and dm+1 is not something to throw away. I tried both this and Jagged bones but for me AotL is lot lot better.

Xsiriss · Jun 17, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

It's probably best on Rt/N minion bombers to be honest.

maxxfury · Jun 18, 2010, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Hero Mb's elite, for me is VERY flexible, and can easily fill a lot of roles without detriment to the overall builds effectiveness.

Id prob take some utility over AOTL/Jagged tbh, depending on the area. Maybe some cleaning, maybe some incoming/fallback (if some additional port isnt needed) ect

AOTL doesnt really do a whole lot for me really..its just kinda there

Chthon · Jun 18, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

AotL is extremely overrated. If you could run it instead of a summon skill, it would be worth writing home about. Since the recharge is so bad, however, you're forced to use it in addition to the summons that you already have anyway -- summon skills that would be quite capable of exploiting all those corpses on their own. That forced redundancy really reduces the benefits of the skill.

In any event, humans should definitely be using OoU.
If you want to use a skill from death magic for your elite, I'd suggest JB. However, you're not stuck to death magic. You can certainly use things like Empathic Removal for utility.

WhiteAsIce · Jun 18, 2010, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Order of Undeath
Animate Bond Fiend
Masochism
EBSoH

Stupid amounts of damage right there.

Atro · Jun 18, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

Order of Undeath
Animate Bond Fiend
Masochism
EBSoH

Stupid amounts of damage right there.

I just tested this out, OMG its ridiculous they do like 50-70 dmg per hit!!! craziness, just seems energy will be a problem and if you are playing alone you would move so slow doing everything.

cellardweller · Jun 18, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

AotL is useful when you really want to get every corpse off the playing field but JB is a better option for general purpose hero bombing - both are light years ahead of discord.

Xenomortis · Jun 18, 2010, 11:32 AM // 11:32

It's useful to get a load of (slightly more durable) minions quickly - that's about it.
It also allows you to have a couple of minions up when you aggro your first group, instead of not having any. The +1 Death isn't anything spectacular and is just a bonus - Masochism is better for the +2 (and hence extra minion).

The elite for a bomber build isn't too important though. Empathic Removal is just sort of convenient, as is Signet of Removal. Divert Hexes has more power too it when you're in area heavier on hexes.
Jagged Bones really isn't that good either, but can add extend the life of your minion wall somewhat.

I know some people run N/P on their MBs, but the paragon shouts aren't all that good and the monk prots are too good to pass up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElementalShadows

I just tested this out, OMG its ridiculous they do like 50-70 dmg per hit!!! craziness, just seems energy will be a problem and if you are playing alone you would move so slow doing everything.

Yes, the damage they do is very strong. Having Vampiric Horrors is advised to both cover the sacrifice costs a bit and to lengthen the life of your expensive Bone Fiends. Ebon Battle Standard of Courage also helps there.
Energy can be very tight when you need to keep OoU up as much as possible, spam BotM and replace lost minions - SoLS or Consume Corpse along with 13 in Soul Reaping can keep up though.
Order of Undeath is a human MM build though and it is not a suitable skill to give to your hero.

The Josip · Jun 18, 2010, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I actually gave up on MM entirely. What AotL does is just make hero fall back more casting Death Novas and waiting for minions to come along. And the skill itself is quite redundant. I was watching my MM without AotL and he had enough minions. With AotL he would maybe start the battle with 1 or 2 more occasionally (and 10 seconds later), but overall it just doesn't thrill me.

Right now I'm playing Me/D without minion master at all and surprisingly the battles are faster, flow nicely, and without necessary baggage. MM is very strong choice when you take it slowly, but if you have a killer team it's pointless. Half of my battle is done by the time minions reach the enemy, at which point I don't need them as a body block anyway and their Death Novas will do less because after half of battle there's few scattered enemies around and not one big mob.

Xenomortis · Jun 18, 2010, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Right now I'm playing Me/D without minion master at all and surprisingly the battles are faster, flow nicely, and without necessary baggage. MM is very strong choice when you take it slowly, but if you have a killer team it's pointless. Half of my battle is done by the time minions reach the enemy, at which point I don't need them as a body block anyway and their Death Novas will do less because after half of battle there's few scattered enemies around and not one big mob.

If you have a load of damage and the framework to keep you propped up you don't need it. This is typical of physical builds.

Lishy · Jun 18, 2010, 11:55 AM // 11:55

AoTL and Masochism is awesome on heroes in my opinion. What's better than an 11 minion army of exploding horrors for massive damage?

Although Order of Undeath looks awesome with bone fiends. It's too bad they're 25 energy and have such low armor..